excess serotonin

Caravaggio wrote:I find your case very interesting because I'm the total opposite, low Serotonin (at least in brain I guess, urine Serotonin was very high) and high Acetylcholine.

I just supposed you have very low Acetylcholine because you think fast but not very deep and have problems learning? While I think slow but very deep.

I also got lack of motivation which I attribute to low Dopamine levels. I'm not sure if my social anxiety is from low Serotonin or high Norepinephrine or a combination of both.

Phenibut for example calms me from inner nervousness by decreasing Norepinephrine.

PubMed ID: 19334514 (can't post links in first 7 days)
So I'm curious how you would react to Huperzine A + ALCAR + DMAE + fish oil because that combination would knock me out (it raises ACh).
Because higher ACh should balance out the Serotonin.

It's contradicting that you mentioned on LC that you have OCD which is associated with low Serotonin. Either you are wrong or you have different levels of Serotonin in different parts of the brain.

Also, how is your stool consistency? Low Serotonin is usually connected with constipation while high Serotonin is connected with diarrhea (but this more reflects the PNS levels of Serotonin).

In this article there are maybe some drugs that you didn't try yet.

PubMed ID: 27652229

Welcome to our forum Caravaggio!
It seems you have amassed a good bit of knowledge.
We are happy to have you here.

Please feel free to introduce yourself formally in the Intro section.

Area-1255 wrote:

Farshad wrote:hmm the latest post I think I have 4  serotonin Short types... is that even possible?
rs11867581  - AA= 2 short
then another SNP rs2020934 - AA = 2 short again
so I have total 4 Short ??? that would make sense... So I have a lot more Serotonin in my synapse right? lower transporter, higher 5HT

Usually people just have 2 right? so I have twice as much serotonin .....



thats why eleuthero  wont work
I also thought I had LOW NMDA activity at first but someone said its very common so I dont think I have it.
Panax Ginseng/white willow bark  wont work because its not increasing SERT just blocking sertonin receptor there will still be serotonin in the synapse...

so that leaves me only 2 choices
Evodiamine + berberine Increase SERT
Progesterone  orally (increase MAO)
and well 3 .... ATD forever
last resort fenclonine (inhibit TPH)









I have  also the  T allele of rs1049353 which cause lower receptor numbers and less activation. With this variation, the receptors also don't become significantly less sensitive when activated (R) - i.e. you don't build up tolerance.

Progesterone is the one thing I disagree most with Peat about. I'm a pro-androgen guy, Progesterone isn't compatible with my "theories" of which the majority of the bodybuilding community and even scientific community agrees with. Progesterone is even shunned on Longecity by their brave men. Why in the hell would you want to promote something that is just a phase, a trend? Something that will fade into oblivion in a matter of years?

Just do the ATD/Fenclonine, and use that + Berberine & Evodiamine.

No idea .. I will just try it out and see how it goes.
But the thing is it has to be taken orally not sublingual  the progesterone , I tried cream didnt work.
progesterone oral:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1f3b/c62a4e8370e5da8b8f5668ceb2634ad72add.pdf

https://neuroendoimmune.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/progesterone-and-the-neurotransmitters-the-under-recognized-relationship/

1. Evodiamine + berberine
2.  forskolin + bacopa
3. Progesterone
4. ATD
5. Fenclonine (whats the half life on this? one study said serotonin cant be find whitin a day after taking dosage, does that include after eating food containting tryptophan too? )

Farshad wrote:
No idea .. I will just try it out and see how it goes.
But the thing is it has to be taken orally not sublingual  the progesterone , I tried cream didnt work.
progesterone oral:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1f3b/c62a4e8370e5da8b8f5668ceb2634ad72add.pdf

https://neuroendoimmune.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/progesterone-and-the-neurotransmitters-the-under-recognized-relationship/

1. Evodiamine + berberine
2.  forskolin + bacopa
3. Progesterone
4. ATD
5. Fenclonine

Progesterone and Pregnenolone aren't very bioavailable when taken orally, most find more benefit transdermally/topically that's why RS Transaderm and Dermacrine are such a success.

Not sure why you feel pills are better in that case.

But whatever works for you bro. Make sure the company is a quality one with decent reviews.

@Caravaggio


yes I think very fast and hard learner. I always thought I was just stupid.. My dopamine used to be normal but with time my serotonin increased and when your serotonin increases especially as much as mine (4 short transporters 2x as much as normal) my dopamine and other neurontransmitters are at the bottom while serotonin is high.

I dont think that combination will work on me.. My serotonin is just too high in the synapse so I have to increase SERT .

I think both low and high serotonin can cause OCD .. I even saw a study high serotonin related to ocd or something.. But I cant find it now .
I have constipation most of the time. But the serotonin in my gut and brain are different. The serotonin from the guy cant even cross the BBB. So I could have low serotonin or normal in my gut meanwhile my serotonin in brain is high. Just like you said your serotonin was high in urine but you think its low in brain.

Area-1255 wrote:

Farshad wrote:
No idea .. I will just try it out and see how it goes.
But the thing is it has to be taken orally not sublingual  the progesterone , I tried cream didnt work.
progesterone oral:
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/1f3b/c62a4e8370e5da8b8f5668ceb2634ad72add.pdf

https://neuroendoimmune.wordpress.com/2013/11/21/progesterone-and-the-neurotransmitters-the-under-recognized-relationship/

1. Evodiamine + berberine
2.  forskolin + bacopa
3. Progesterone
4. ATD
5. Fenclonine

Progesterone and Pregnenolone aren't very bioavailable when taken orally, most find more benefit transdermally/topically that's why RS Transaderm and Dermacrine are such a success.

Not sure why you feel pills are better in that case.

But whatever works for you bro. Make sure the company is a quality one with decent reviews.

will be using this
https://www.healthnatura.com/product-p/progesterone1oz.htm

1 drop is 3 mg.
So I take 33 drops I get about 100mg
100mg orally I should be getting like 20mg progesterone around there which is good enough . Men make 10mg daily , females 20mg.
So If I take 100mg daily It should last about 25+ days
it contains 2700mg progesterone.

Farshad wrote:

will be using this
https://www.healthnatura.com/product-p/progesterone1oz.htm

1 drop is 3 mg.
So I take 33 drops  I get about 100mg
100mg orally I should be getting like 20mg progesterone around there which is good enough . Men make 10mg daily , females 20mg.
So If I take 100mg daily It should last about 25+ days
it contains 2700mg progesterone.

Like I said I'm not really a big fan of Progesterone, either.
It seems you are intent on continuing that theory but I really don't think its going to help you.

Farshad wrote:
I think both low and high serotonin can cause OCD .. I even saw a study high serotonin related to ocd or something.. But I cant find it now .
I have constipation most of the time. But the serotonin in my gut and brain are different. The serotonin from the guy cant even cross the BBB. So I could have low serotonin or normal in my gut meanwhile my serotonin in brain is high. Just like you said your serotonin was high in urine but you think its low in brain.

Its this one --> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12452254
Eat Weight Disord. 2002 Sep;7(3):221-31.
Is there a common mechanism of serotonin dysregulation in anorexia nervosa and obsessive compulsive disorder?
Barbarich N1.
Author information
Abstract
Numerous studies have documented increased rates of comorbidity in patients with anorexia nervosa (AN) or obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD). The interaction of many possible factors influences this comorbidity, but one possible explanation involves the neurotransmitter serotonin, which is widely distributed in the brain and has been implicated in a number of psychological behaviours. Although low serotonin levels have been found in patients with impulsive and aggressive behaviour, high levels have been correlated with obsessive and compulsive behaviour. In an attempt to further our understanding of this relationship, a large number of studies have measured serotonin levels throughout different stages of illness in both AN and OCD; furthermore, serotonin challenge studies and drug treatment trials have provided further support for this theory. This paper discusses the evidence supporting the view that the obsessive behaviour characteristic of AN and OCD may be partially due to a dysregulation in the serotonergic system.

PMID: 12452254
[Indexed for MEDLINE]

Just killing time right now... Gotta order all the stuff..

So  humans either have 2 short ones, 2 long ones or 1 short and 1 long ?
2 long means = less serotonin
2 short = more serotonin
1 short and 1 long = balance

And I have 4 short  ones?..... I tried searching but I cant find anything about  having more than two 5-HTTLPR forms. So how would berberine + evandomine affect me? would it be like I had 2 short ones ? or even less?

I mean shouldnt we like contact somebody and let scientists or whoever know that its possible to have 4 short ones? so maybe  they can look into it and people like me can get help.

Farshad wrote:Im still very intrested in ATD.

So I take the gelatin to balance out the tryptophan the steak contains. But where can  I  get   gelatin to take 100 grams everyday?  will taking a high dosage protein 100g+ will that deplet serotonin from the steak? ?Do I need to take  it with the meal?

Only drink water got it.



Will this amino acid work? doesent have L-cysteine  , glycine, L-proline  ,  and L-serine and also the dosages are 5Grams only.

https://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/essential-amino-energy.html

Will taking 100 grams whey protein be enough to cover  the 4 amino acids I dont take and the need to take gelatin?

will this work ?  also  can protein convert to amino acids so couldnt it  convert to tryptophan if i took protein  supplement?

These all are the SNPs I have which I think are related to serotonin:

rs1049353 TT = The T allele of rs1049353 may cause lower receptor numbers and less activation. With this variation, the receptors also don't become significantly less sensitive when activated - i.e. you don't build up tolerance. Less SERT Expression = more serotonin?

rs11174811 AA = The activity of this receptor is mediated by G proteins which activate a phosphatidyl-inositol-calcium second messenger system .

GOOD SERT(?)
rs4251417 CC = ???

rs2129785 TT =  Short Allele 91% of time.

Then the ´´bad´´ ones I talked about in the thread:

rs2020934 AA = rs2020934 (A) (Me=AA)= Short allele (r2=0.72)S=lower transporter, higher 5HT

rs11867581 AA = AA= Short Allele 91% of the time. The A (minor) allele is associated with: Short allele= lower transporter, higher 5HT.

The last 2  bad ones  are how I came to the conclusion I had 4 Short sert forms..

---------------------------thats from one website this is from another which says I have 1 SHORT but 2 LONG?)----
gs288

You have two long form 5-HTTLPR. You likely have two long-form 5-HTTLPR (serotonin-transporter-linked polymorphic region). Variations in the region have been extensively investigated in connection with neuropsychiatric disorders. Identification of tag haplotypes for 5HTTLPR for different genome-wide SNP platforms

gs289

You have one short form 5-HTTLPR. You probably have one short-form 5-HTTLPR (serotonin-transporter-linked polymorphic region). Variations in the region have been extensively investigated in connection with neuropsychiatric disorders. Identification of tag haplotypes for 5HTTLPR for different genome-wide SNP platforms

Its weird that in the text it says 1 short but on the right side on the genetic website of the bar it says magnitude 2 so that means two short forms but the text says 1 short?

Anyone understand this better than me?

Farshad wrote:

Farshad wrote:Im still very intrested in ATD.

So I take the gelatin to balance out the tryptophan the steak contains. But where can  I  get   gelatin to take 100 grams everyday?  will taking a high dosage protein 100g+ will that deplet serotonin from the steak? ?Do I need to take  it with the meal?

Only drink water got it.



Will this amino acid work? doesent have L-cysteine  , glycine, L-proline  ,  and L-serine and also the dosages are 5Grams only.

https://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/essential-amino-energy.html

Will taking 100 grams whey protein be enough to cover  the 4 amino acids I dont take and the need to take gelatin?

will this work ?  also  can protein convert to amino acids so couldnt it  convert to tryptophan if i took protein  supplement?

You can start with that and work your way up.
Buy the Glycine and Proline separately.
Honestly I don't think the Cysteine is that necessary and its too irritating for many people anyway plus it makes your sweat smell weird (sulfur).

Whey protein contains Tryptophan, so you'd be violating rule #1, NOT TO INTAKE Tryptophan!!!

So no - can't do that. You got to use the amino's separately and make sure NONE, ZERO tryptophan is ingested.

Eat Jello, take Amino's, but stay the hell away from all sources of Tryptophan. You can ONLY do this for 2-4 days, any longer may be adverse/dangerous!

I'm dedicated Farshad, I'll look into more to see what we can do for you.

Farshad, I have an idea actually. You say you have high serotonin right?
Another thing we can try is to simply over ride some of the effects.
You might be able to do that with Aniracetam (a nootropic) which positively modulates AMPA-receptors, and then throw in Test Force II (D-Aspartic Acid/Sarcosine). That might be your best bet.
High serotonin mostly reduces glutamate, so if we can restore glutamate by "force-shifting" the balance of the two - you might benefit from that as well! Just a thought.

Area-1255 wrote:

Farshad wrote:

Farshad wrote:Im still very intrested in ATD.

So I take the gelatin to balance out the tryptophan the steak contains. But where can  I  get   gelatin to take 100 grams everyday?  will taking a high dosage protein 100g+ will that deplet serotonin from the steak? ?Do I need to take  it with the meal?

Only drink water got it.



Will this amino acid work? doesent have L-cysteine  , glycine, L-proline  ,  and L-serine and also the dosages are 5Grams only.

https://www.bodybuilding.com/store/opt/essential-amino-energy.html

Will taking 100 grams whey protein be enough to cover  the 4 amino acids I dont take and the need to take gelatin?

will this work ?  also  can protein convert to amino acids so couldnt it  convert to tryptophan if i took protein  supplement?

You can start with that and work your way up.
Buy the Glycine and Proline separately.
Honestly I don't think the Cysteine is that necessary and its too irritating for many people anyway plus it makes your sweat smell weird (sulfur).

Whey protein contains Tryptophan, so you'd be violating rule #1, NOT TO INTAKE Tryptophan!!!

So no - can't do that. You got to use the amino's separately and make sure NONE, ZERO tryptophan is ingested.

Eat Jello, take Amino's, but stay the hell away from all sources of Tryptophan. You can ONLY do this for 2-4 days, any longer may be adverse/dangerous!

I'm dedicated Farshad, I'll look into more to see what we can do for you.  

oh is there tryptophan containing ingredients in that amino acid I linked. where can I get gelatin supplement? How much do I need to take?

Area-1255 wrote:Farshad, I have an idea actually. You say you have high serotonin right?
Another thing we can try is to simply over ride some of the effects.
You might be able to do that with Aniracetam (a nootropic) which positively modulates AMPA-receptors, and then throw in Test Force II (D-Aspartic Acid/Sarcosine). That might be your best bet.
High serotonin mostly reduces glutamate, so if we can restore glutamate by "force-shifting" the balance of the two - you might benefit from that as well! Just a thought.

wont my serotonin  still be high  just my glutamate is now normal if i do this

Farshad wrote:
wont my serotonin will still be high just my glutamate is now normal if i do this

Yup but you'd have relief from your symptoms to some degree. Mainly the Anhedonia, plus you need to Glutamate to make GABA, which will inhibit serotonin and relax you [!].

Area-1255 wrote:

Farshad wrote:
wont my serotonin will still be high just my glutamate is now normal if i do this

Yup but you'd have relief from your symptoms to some degree. Mainly the Anhedonia, plus you need to Glutamate to make GABA, which will inhibit serotonin and relax you [!].

oh ok. I will keep it in the back of my head.  So the amino acids you mentioned 15 but theres only 9 amino acids you can get from food , any reason for taking CONDITIONALLY ESSENTIAL Amino Acids?

(edit) oh because the  non ESSENTIAL Amino Acids need those to be made.. I notice you didnt say glutamine. hm why did you skip glutamine and add alanine a non essential amino acid? also im still confused about the steak doesnt it contain a lot of tryoptophan? is the gelatin supposed to counteract that?

Farshad wrote:

Area-1255 wrote:

Farshad wrote:
wont my serotonin will still be high just my glutamate is now normal if i do this

Yup but you'd have relief from your symptoms to some degree. Mainly the Anhedonia, plus you need to Glutamate to make GABA, which will inhibit serotonin and relax you [!].

oh ok. I will keep it in the back of my head.  So the amino acids you mentioned 15 but theres only 9 amino acids you can get from food , any reason for taking CONDITIONALLY ESSENTIAL Amino Acids?

(edit) oh because the  non ESSENTIAL Amino Acids need those to be made.. I notice you didnt say glutamine. hm why did you skip glutamine and add alanine a non essential amino acid?

Glutamine and Alanine are also needed. Glutamine especially.
You should be able to substitute alanine with beta-alanine (3grams - 5grams per day) if you are unable to find regular Alanine. I would use NutraBio's brand of Beta-Alanine (Carnosyn) if you can find it/get it to your country. I'm sure its available locally, too.

Area-1255 wrote:

Farshad wrote:

Area-1255 wrote:

Farshad wrote:
wont my serotonin will still be high just my glutamate is now normal if i do this

Yup but you'd have relief from your symptoms to some degree. Mainly the Anhedonia, plus you need to Glutamate to make GABA, which will inhibit serotonin and relax you [!].

oh ok. I will keep it in the back of my head.  So the amino acids you mentioned 15 but theres only 9 amino acids you can get from food , any reason for taking CONDITIONALLY ESSENTIAL Amino Acids?

(edit) oh because the  non ESSENTIAL Amino Acids need those to be made.. I notice you didnt say glutamine. hm why did you skip glutamine and add alanine a non essential amino acid?

Glutamine and Alanine are also needed. Glutamine especially.
You should be able to substitute alanine with beta-alanine (3grams - 5grams per day) if you are unable to find regular Alanine. I would use NutraBio's brand of Beta-Alanine (Carnosyn) if you can find it/get it to your country. I'm sure its available locally, too.

maybe im ignorant but isnt it non essential IE your body can make it from the amino acids you take in? so what would be the point in supplementing with it and not the other non essential amino acids? or does alanine need tryptophan to be made or something. Well I will cross that bridge when I get there .

Farshad wrote:
maybe im ignorant but isnt it non essential IE your body can make it from the amino acids you take in? so what would be the point in supplementing with it and not the other non essential amino acids? or does alanine need tryptophan to be made or something. Well I will cross that bridge when I get there .

The point is that large-neutral amino-acids reduce the absorption of dietary Tryptophan and bodily tryptophan won't make it past the blood-brain-barrier.

Area-1255 wrote:

Farshad wrote:
maybe im ignorant but isnt it non essential IE your body can make it from the amino acids you take in? so what would be the point in supplementing with it and not the other non essential amino acids? or does alanine need tryptophan to be made or something. Well I will cross that bridge when I get there .

The point is that large-neutral amino-acids reduce the absorption of dietary Tryptophan and bodily tryptophan won't make it past the blood-brain-barrier.

 I didnt know serotonin could still be made in the gut if you avoided tryptophan and I also thought gut serotonin couldnt cross the BBB. I thought there was a different path for the brain tryptophan. Im just beating a dead horse at this point lol. I still dont understand the steak part doesent it have a lot of tryptophan and gelatin is supposed to ?

Farshad wrote:
 I didnt know serotonin could still be made in the gut if you avoided tryptophan and I also thought gut serotonin couldnt cross the BBB. I thought there was a different path for the brain tryptophan. Im just beating a dead horse at this point lol. I still dont understand the steak part doesent it have a lot of tryptophan and gelatin is supposed to ?

No what we are talking about hydrolyzed gelatin (Collagen) or itself with a beef source. Essentially you are choosing between Collagen or "pure" Gelatin.
http://greatlakesgelatin.com/storefront/
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/jello-vs-gelatin-for-glycine-content.5360/#post-63145
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/bulk-gelatin-in-sf-bay-area.2215/#post-25938
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/less-expensive-gelatine-collagen-hydrolysate.3813/#post-45630
Solgar – Natural Gelatin, 250 Capsules

what if I dont have high serotonin in the synapse? what if my receptors are genetically too sensitive like you said? what if I hypoexpress  SERT and my receptors are just sensetive... Well I guess I will have to find out if Increasing SERT doesent work I must hav sensetive receptors ... how would you fix sensetive receptors? serotonin antagonists?

also I wanna add the white flood classic containing evodiamine is just temporary limited release. It wont be selling forever I emailed and asked them.. just thought i should let you know for your article.

Farshad, what happens if you eat like 4 bananas?

I already get very uplifted mood after 1.

They naturally contain real Serotonin (about 7 mg per 100 g [Souci SW, Fachmann W, Kraut H (2000).]).

Of course it doesn't cross the blood–brain barrier but it will have an effect on the PNS. And the high carbohydrate and Tryptophan (just looked it up and they don't even have a high Tryptophan content but they still seem to be better than other high Tryptophan foods, could be the amino acid profile) content will boost the brain Serotonin.

For me the high Serotonin and Serotonin-precursors give me a positive result in the CNS and a negative result in the PNS (worsened constipation).

That's probably why some people say bananas give them constipation while others say it improves their GI motility.

Caravaggio wrote:Farshad, what happens if you eat like 4 bananas?

I already get very uplifted mood after 1.

They naturally contain real Serotonin (about 7 mg per 100 g [Souci SW, Fachmann W, Kraut H (2000).]).

Of course it doesn't cross the blood–brain barrier but it will have an effect on the PNS. And the high carbohydrate and Tryptophan (just looked it up and they don't even have a high Tryptophan content but they still seem to be better than other high Tryptophan foods, could be the amino acid profile) content will boost the brain Serotonin.

For me the high Serotonin and Serotonin-precursors give me a positive result in the CNS and a negative result in the PNS (worsened constipation).

That's probably why some people say bananas give them constipation while others say it improves their GI motility.

I   dont feel nothing. I hope I dont   offend you but you said you had low serotonin right? what benefit would you get from this thread?

I don't even know if I have high or low Serotonin, I just guessed.

For example this site lists symptoms and I got almost all of them all and it's for high Serotonin.

mindrenewal dot us/page10.html

Although the guy who made the list could have mixed PNS and CNS symptoms which could have different levels of 5-HT.

I remember when I took 5-htp 500mg... Oh my god I felt sick... my stomach .. dizzy... sweating... this was before I found out serotonin was my problem. the typical dosages are 300mg-500mg according to Examine.. So why did I feel sick when I took that normal dosage? All I could do was be in my bed and wait it out I couldnt eat and it lasted like 3 days the bad feeling I got from 5-htp.

I threw the 5-htp away first day I got it and since then I know I dont have low serotonin and many other occurences has happend after I took 5-htp that has lead me to belive I have high serotonin. I have high hopes In Increasing SERT.