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excess serotonin

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1 excess serotonin on Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:31 am

Farshad


Hello I would like to deplet my serotonin levels drastically. I have tried few drugs and supplements but they do not work. I was looking into something called fenclonine but I cant find it to buy online..

Can anyone help me decrease my serotonin levels? Im not sure what causes my high serotonin but I know its genetics and that theres something in my brain that is doing it... but what is doing it I dont know. Will increasing NMDA activity reduce serotonin ? Are there any other parts of the brain I can try and block/reduce that could be causing my high serotonin in order to reduce the serotonin?

2 Re: excess serotonin on Mon Dec 11, 2017 1:34 pm

Farshad



5-HT1A - Ashwagandha
5-HT1B & 5-HT1D - Yohimbine

Missing 5-HT1E & 5-HT1F.

5-HT2A & 5-HT2C - White Willow Bark
5-HT2B - Yohimbine (again)

5-HT3 - Panax Ginseng

5-HT4 - L-Lysine

Missing: 5-HT5A & 5-HT5B

5-HT6 - Magnolia Officinalis

Missing: 5-HT7


Now if we could finnish the missing ones we would theoretically block all serotonin receptors right? and therefore deplet serotonin?

3 Re: excess serotonin on Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:10 pm

kpavel

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https://area1255.blogspot.ru/2014/06/4-natural-otc-serotonin-antagonists.html
https://area1255.blogspot.ru/2014/12/


I read eleuthero may lower tph2

thiamine may be a basic thing to help
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/509224

extracellular serotonin is really bad so people try to upregulate sert because low sert correlates with anxiety very well (at least in rat tests)

4 Re: excess serotonin on Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:25 pm

Farshad


yohimbine is an inhibitor of SERT . So less Serotonin?
might give eleuthero  a shot.

What I need is supplements that block the missing receptors and therefore when I have found all them I can combine  the supps and take them at the same time to block all serotonin receptors.

5 Re: excess serotonin on Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:13 am

kpavel

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Farshad wrote:yohimbine is an inhibitor of SERT . So less Serotonin?
might give eleuthero  a shot.

What I need is supplements that block the missing receptors and therefore when I have found all them I can combine  the supps and take them at the same time to block all serotonin receptors.

I don't know, but people also talk about cyproheptadine, metergoline for this. I'm not a fan of drugs, only read this.

Yohimbine causes anxiety and addictive behaviour.

You can also try lisuride cause it's a popular thing on raypeatforums, I read very good things about anxiety and libido for this drug.

Also I tried beta-phenylethylamine (natural stuff). Bought in a British internet store. It may help anxiety same way as lisuride if I'm not mistaken. For me it gave strong euphoric and noticable anti-anxiety feeling for several minutes on doses of 1000 mg. Mixed it with quercetin. People use mao-b natural inhibitors in a careful manner (no mao-a inhibitors!).

6 Re: excess serotonin on Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:34 am

Farshad


kpavel wrote:
Farshad wrote:yohimbine is an inhibitor of SERT . So less Serotonin?
might give eleuthero  a shot.

What I need is supplements that block the missing receptors and therefore when I have found all them I can combine  the supps and take them at the same time to block all serotonin receptors.

I don't know, but people also talk about cyproheptadine, metergoline for this. I'm not a fan of drugs, only read this.

Yohimbine causes anxiety and addictive behaviour.

You can also try lisuride cause it's a popular thing on raypeatforums, I read very good things about anxiety and libido for this drug.

Also I tried beta-phenylethylamine (natural stuff). Bought in a British internet store. It may help anxiety same way as lisuride if I'm not mistaken. For me it gave strong euphoric and noticable anti-anxiety feeling for several minutes on doses of 1000 mg. Mixed it with quercetin. People use mao-b natural inhibitors in a careful manner (no mao-a inhibitors!).  

what are some natural mao b inhibitors?

also I tried cyproheptadine and metergoline didnt work. I think these serotonin antagonist drugs just stop serotonin from taking effect no reduces levels thats why no work for me.

7 Re: excess serotonin on Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:52 pm

kpavel

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Farshad wrote:
kpavel wrote:
Farshad wrote:yohimbine is an inhibitor of SERT . So less Serotonin?
might give eleuthero  a shot.

What I need is supplements that block the missing receptors and therefore when I have found all them I can combine  the supps and take them at the same time to block all serotonin receptors.

I don't know, but people also talk about cyproheptadine, metergoline for this. I'm not a fan of drugs, only read this.

Yohimbine causes anxiety and addictive behaviour.

You can also try lisuride cause it's a popular thing on raypeatforums, I read very good things about anxiety and libido for this drug.

Also I tried beta-phenylethylamine (natural stuff). Bought in a British internet store. It may help anxiety same way as lisuride if I'm not mistaken. For me it gave strong euphoric and noticable anti-anxiety feeling for several minutes on doses of 1000 mg. Mixed it with quercetin. People use mao-b natural inhibitors in a careful manner (no mao-a inhibitors!).  

what are some natural mao b inhibitors?

also I tried cyproheptadine and metergoline didnt work. I think these serotonin antagonist drugs just stop serotonin from taking effect no reduces levels thats why no work for me.

There are some. For example kava kava. Or phellodendron amurensis. Problems are the stuff either can be rare for your country or it has equal or stronger affinity for mao-a type. But there is practice from many people. For example:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/herbsmxf/phenethylamine-hordenine-this-rocks-t3983614.html
http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/667240-PEA-(phenethylamine)-Hordenine
https://liftmode.com/blog/phenylethylamine-with-stacks/

8 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:05 pm

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Cyproheptadine is a good drug but a lot of times its about dose. For example, 4mg might not be ENOUGH for Farshad, whereas for me or Kpavel it might work perfectly. So for Farshad he might need 8mg or 12mg for a "proper" anti-serotonin effect. After all, the affinity of cyproheptadine for 5-HT1A, 5-HT6 and 5-HT7 is really NOT that great. In regards to Anhedonia and Libido, one would want to ensure that 5-HT2C is targeted efficiently, which Cyproheptadine does. However, in regards to Cognition and Sexual arousal, that's where 5-HT1A, 5-HT6 and 5-HT4 come into play. So that's where you add in stuff like Ashwagandha and L-Lysine - of which clearly you can combine with Cyproheptadine to get the full effect.

Fenclonine does shit to other monoamines too, not just serotonin, so many people believe it is too dangerous for practical human use (continuous), but short-term should be OK.

Eventually you will deplete other good stuff like Melatonin, HGH and such though - so that's when your body may actually have an UNFAVORABLE response from Fenclonine.

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9 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:08 pm

Farshad


I actually tried up to 50mg of Cyproheptadine , nothing happend. Which I belive is because serotonin antagonist just stop serotonin from taking effect. Not reduce the levels. Also im not sure how correct this is but in high enough dosages when you take serotonin antagonist you block all serotonin receptors.


the half life of fenclonine like 10 hours was thinking of taking it everyday. I dont mind melatonin decreasing . But HGH  I didnt know that was an Issue? I thought reducing serotonin increased HGH and testosterone... Does reducing serotonin reduce anything else?

But wouldnt technically if you find supplements that block all serotonin receptor and take them at the same time work? maybe not as good as fenclonine in depleting serotonin but good enough. I never understood how just blocking 1 serotonin receptor will help high serotonin induced problems wouldnt you need to block atleast half of them to see an effect?

Well I have a few things I wanna try first before I buy fenclonine . Like taking Progesterone Orally not cream since cream doesent increase GABA AND MAO That  well but orally like swallow,  if you take a high dosage will increase GABA and MAO a/b and break down serotonin  , also GABA reduces neuron firing to further reduce serotonin.



Right now im trying to find supplements that block the missing receptors so I can try them all out at the same time and see how it goes. But its probably good enough as it is right now in reducing serotonin but I wanna perfect it. Besides I think 5HT7 is very important...

Anyway I hope I dont come off as like I think i am an expert Like I know it all  .. I   dont know much about serotonin , the brain , hormones etc .. thats why im asking here ...

Also I saw your post about natural serotonin antagonists or something . I tried vitex and shilajit . none worked. Have yet to try panax ginseng and yohimbe. btw shouldnt it be yohimbine ? not yohimbe?

10 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:31 pm

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Farshad, you've been dealing with this stuff for a while now. I've seen your posts on a slew of forums. I'm gonna' be very honest with you. I don't think your issue is serotonin-related, I think you have anxiety. I think you should be targeting noradrenaline/adrenaline. Tell me something, be honest, has ANYTHING at this point provided you significant measurable benefit?

Have you tried Magnolia Officinalis extract?
We have an article by a writer of ours for OCD.
You may be able to benefit from this.
Also, you are from Sweden, right?
Are you ethnically Scandinavian?
It could be you have an altered dopamine-D2 gene and/or a "short-short" serotonin transporter which is common amongst Scandinavian peoples.
That would mean, you may have less serotonin clearance, and more dopamine/noradrenaline from the D2 gene (due to defective autoreceptors).

The short transporter would also cause more ANXIETY/OCD.
--> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22124413/
--> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20110086
--> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7786911

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11 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:40 pm

Farshad


Trust me I have high serotonin ... I have never been so sure about something in my life....

Im middle eastern (kurdish).

I dont know what is causing it in my brain but I know its genetics and its impossible to fix naturally like excercise, eating healthier etc..

I dont have high noradrenaline or dopamine. In fact I have zero motivation and I dont enjoy anything and I have no feelings / cant express. You know how most people say they feel like a zombie with no emotions when they are on an ssri? Thats from an increase in Serotonin.. Thats how I feel all the time times 8..

You dont have to agree with me but if you know anything that could help in decreasing serotonin let me know.

Things that have helped me..

Tianeptine (acts on serotonin ), phenibut (reduces serotonin) , memantine helped no idea how and bromantane (reduces serotonin tph) oh and also valium (benzod reduce serotonin ) and Zyprexa an antagonist on MANY serotonin receptors.



Last edited by Farshad on Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

12 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:45 pm

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Farshad wrote:Trust me I have high serotonin ... I have never been so sure about something in my life....

I dont know what is causing it in my brain but I know its genetics and its impossible to fix naturally like excercise, eating healthier etc..

I dont have high noradrenaline or dopamine. In fact I have zero motivation and I dont enjoy anything and I have no feelings / cant express. You know how most people say they feel like a zombie with no emotions when they are on an ssri? Thats from an increase in Serotonin.. Thats how I feel all the time times 8..

You dont have to agree with me but if you know anything that could help in decreasing serotonin let me know.

Things that have helped me..

Tianeptine (acts on serotonin ), phenibut (reduces serotonin) , memantine helped no idea how and bromantane (reduces serotonin tph)

You should check your genes with Promethease.
If you are ethnically Swede, you will probably have at least one short serotonin transporter. Which leaves more serotonin floating around.
It increases emotional reactivity/anxiety.
EDIT: I see you are Middle Eastern living in Sweden then?
Then in that case the same is still possible. Although middle east runs the possibility of a "long" transporter as well as a short.

I'd still run the check.

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13 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:53 pm

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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25596490/
↓ Full text
The serotonin transporter (5-HTTLPR) but not serotonin receptor (5-HT2C Cys23Ser) variant is associated with bipolar I disorder in Kurdish population from Western Iran.
Mohammadi S, et al. Neurosci Lett. 2015.
Show full citation
Abstract
The role of 5-HTTLPR and 5-HT2C Cys23Ser polymorphisms in the psychopathology of mood disorders and suicide behavior is controversial. The aim of present study was to investigate the association between 5-HTTLPR and 5-HT2C Cys23Ser variants and susceptibility to bipolar I disorder (BID). The 5-HT2C genotypes were studied in 152 patients with BID and 173 gender- and age-matched healthy individuals with Kurds ethnic background from Western Iran using PCR and PCR-RFLP methods. In recessive model (SS vs. LL+LS) the SS genotype was associated with 1.79-fold increased risk of BID (p=0.018). Also, the presence of S allele increased the risk of adult-onset BID by 1.76-fold (p=0.027). No association was detected between 5-HTTLPR genotypes and alleles with suicide attempt. The frequency of 5-HT2C Ser allele in patients and controls were 12.3 and 12.5%, respectively. Mutant allele of HT2C Ser had higher frequency in female (14.7%) than male (10.5%, p=0.27) patients. The frequency of HT2C Ser allele in patients with a family history of BID tended to be higher (15.7%) than those without a family history of the disease (11.8%). The frequency of HT2C Ser allele in suicide attempter women was higher (16.7%) than those without a suicide attempt (14.3%). Our findings demonstrate 5-HTTLPR polymorphism might be a risk factor for BID and adult-onset BID in Kurds population. However, we found the lack of an association between 5-HT2C Cys/Ser variants and the risk of BID.

PMID 25596490 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Full text

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14 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:00 pm

Farshad


I ran my 23andme data file and searched serotonin on promethease report . these are the results I found


You have one short form 5-HTTLPR. You probably have one short-form 5-HTTLPR (serotonin-transporter-linked polymorphic region). Variations in the region have been extensively investigated in connection with neuropsychiatric disorders. Identification of tag haplotypes for 5HTTLPR for different genome-wide SNP platforms



You have two long form 5-HTTLPR. You likely have two long-form 5-HTTLPR (serotonin-transporter-linked polymorphic region). Variations in the region have been extensively investigated in connection with neuropsychiatric disorders. Identification of tag haplotypes for 5HTTLPR for different genome-wide SNP platforms


Implicated as part of a haplotype of the dopamine D1 receptor DRD1 gene associated with autism spectrum disorders in families having only affected males. The haplotype is rs265981(C)- rs4532(A)- rs686(T) as published, though not necessarily as oriented in dbSNP. Significant association of DRD1 with nicotine dependence. A haplotype of the DRD1 gene is associated with alcohol dependence. The influence of serotonin- and other genes on impulsive behavioral aggression and cognitive impulsivity in children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): Findings from a family-based association test (FBAT) analysis. Differential allelic expression of dopamine D1 receptor gene (DRD1) is modulated by microRNA miR-504. Heroin addiction in African Americans: a hypothesis-driven association study....

rs1176713 is a SNP, also known as g.14396A>G, in the 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) receptor 3A HTR3A gene. rs1176713 may be a useful predictor of therapeutic response to risperidone treatment in Chinese schizophrenia patients


rs518147, also known as -697G/C, is a SNP in the 5-hydroxytryptamine (serotonin) receptor 2C HTR2C gene. A study of 107 patients with schizophrenia being treated with olanzapine reported a protective effect against weight-gain from the (C) allele of this SNP; fewer patients (of 28) with a rs518147(C) allele had a body mass index increase of >=10% (p=0.0006), whereas (G;G) homozygotes did. This effect may also involve nearby SNP rs3813929. The association between HTR2C polymorphisms and obesity in psychiatric patients using antipsychotics: a cross-sectional study. The association between HTR2C gene polymorphisms and the metabolic syndrome in patients with schizophrenia. Multivariate permutation analysis associates multiple polymorphisms with subphenotypes of major depression. HTR2C gene polymorphisms and the metabolic syndrome in patients with schizophrenia: a replication study....

Association between a functional polymorphism in the serotonin transporter gene and diarrhoea predominant irritable bowel syndrome in women. Genetic polymorphisms in monoamine neurotransmitter systems show only weak association with acute post-surgical pain in humans. Gene-gene interaction associated with neural reward sensitivity. Sexually dimorphic effects of four genes (COMT, SLC6A2, MAOA, SLC6A4) in genetic associations of ADHD: a preliminary study. Variants of the serotonin transporter gene and NEO-PI-R Neuroticism: No association in the BLSA and SardiNIA samples. Development and validation of a high-throughput screening method for two polymorphisms in the serotonin transporter gene. Association and gene-gene interaction of SLC6A4 and ITGB3 in autism. Association of tagging single nucleotide polymorphisms on 8 candidate genes in dopaminergic pathway with schizophrenia in Croatian population....

rs1042173 is a SNP in the solute carrier family 6 (neurotransmitter transporter, serotonin), member 4 SLC6A4 gene. A study of 275 patients seeking treatment for alcoholism concluded that Caucasians of with the rs1042173(T;T) genotype consumed an average of 11.17 drinks per drinking day, compared with an average of 8.58 for carriers of a rs1042173(G) allele (p = 0.0034). While this held true for both men and women, this association was not seen in Hispanics.

[GWAS:Response to serotonin reuptake inhibitors in major depressive disorder (plasma drug and metabolite levels)]

G allele associated with schizophrenia among 120 (likely Japanese) first-episode neuroleptic-naive schizophrenics treated with risperidone genotyped for 30 variants in misc. dopamine and serotonin (receptors and otherwise) two SNPs in DRD2 ( rs1799989 and rs1800497) and two SNPs in AKT1 ( rs3803300 and rs2494732) were significant predictors of treatment response to risperidone The ancestral allele is G in the dbSNP database.

Brain-derived neurotrophic factor does not influence age at neurologic onset of Huntington's disease. The influence of serotonin- and other genes on impulsive behavioral aggression and cognitive impulsivity in children with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): Findings from a family-based association test (FBAT) analysis. Evidence of association between brain-derived neurotrophic factor gene and bipolar disorder. Brain-derived neurotrophic factor ( BDNF) gene: no major impact on antidepressant treatment response. Molecular differentiation of schizoaffective disorder from schizophrenia using BDNF haplotypes. The role of BDNF genetic polymorphisms in bipolar disorder with psychiatric comorbidities. Pharmacogenetics of antidepressant response. Linkage and association study of neurotrophins and their receptors as novel susceptibility genes for childhood IgA nephropathy....




And it just keeps going when I scroll down just more and more text.

15 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:04 pm

Farshad


See I was right.... High Serotonin .

16 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:04 pm

Area-1255

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That doesn't make any sense mate. You have "one short" but two long???
So you probably have twice as much 5-HT3 and 5-HT2C expression.
I'm not sure if that is affecting you or not.

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17 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:05 pm

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Farshad wrote:See I was right.... High Serotonin .
Have you tried ATD?
I'm pretty sure you have.
I remember reading it on Ray peat forum.
Like I said bro, this has been going on for a while.
I still think you need to tackle the anxiety issues.

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18 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:06 pm

Farshad


Area-1255 wrote:That doesn't make any sense mate. You have "one short" but two long???
So you probably have twice as much 5-HT3 and 5-HT2C expression.
I'm not sure if that is affecting you or not.

Im just copying and pasting.

im not sure what twice as much 5ht2c expression means? does that mean more or less serotonin?

19 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:07 pm

Area-1255

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Farshad wrote:
Area-1255 wrote:That doesn't make any sense mate. You have "one short" but two long???
So you probably have twice as much 5-HT3 and 5-HT2C expression.
I'm not sure if that is affecting you or not.

Im just copying and pasting.

im not sure what twice as much 5ht2c expression means? does that mean more or less serotonin?
It means typically you'd be more sensitive to the effects of serotonin and that taking an anti-psychotic drug that blocks it would have less of an effect in some ways.
So that could be part of the problem.
That's also a difficult one to tackle.

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20 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:07 pm

Farshad


No I havent tried androstatrienedione if thats what ATD means

21 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:07 pm

Area-1255

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List your primary concerns, Farshad.
Tell me every SYMPTOM you are experiencing.

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22 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:08 pm

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Farshad wrote:No  I havent tried androstatrienedione if thats what ATD means
No, I mean acute tryptophan depletion. Depriving yourself from all dietary tryptophan. For at least 2-4 days.

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23 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:10 pm

Farshad


Area-1255 wrote:
Farshad wrote:No  I havent tried androstatrienedione if thats what ATD means
No, I mean acute tryptophan depletion. Depriving yourself from all dietary tryptophan. For at least 2-4 days.
nop. should I try and not eat for 4 days? I can

24 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:14 pm

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Farshad wrote:
Area-1255 wrote:
Farshad wrote:No  I havent tried androstatrienedione if thats what ATD means
No, I mean acute tryptophan depletion. Depriving yourself from all dietary tryptophan. For at least 2-4 days.
nop. should I try and not eat for 4 days? I can
No, don't fast entirely.
Eat Gelatin/Jello and drink water. You would intake ALL of your essential amino's EXCEPT Tryptophan. Therefore, you would need to BUY every amino acid separately. Then take the following concocted amount.

As said in the study...
L-alanine 5.5 g, L-arginine 4.9 g, L-cysteine 2.7 g, glycine 3.2 g, L-histidine 3.2 g,
L-isoleucine 8 g,
L-leucine 13.5 g, L-lysine monohydrochloride 11 g,
L-methionine 3 g, L-phenylalanine 5.7 g, L-proline 12.2 g, L-serine 6.9 g,
L-threonine 6.9 g, L-tyrosine, 6.9 g, and L-valine 8.9 g.

So you would buy them all separately.
You need to supplement that amount (approximately) each day, twice a day.
Once a day can be fine too. Or you can split it up half-dose each.
Just don't eat ANYTHING except steak Gelatin or Jello.

You can not do this for any more than a few days at a time.
Beware though, side-effects are plenty for some people.
For example, you may get an unforseen change in mental status, energy levels (extreme mania!) and also some people have experienced odd/eccentric behavior. Personally, I do not experience these exact effects (negative) however I had mild Insomnia on the days that I did it.



Last edited by Area-1255 on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

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25 Re: excess serotonin on Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:14 pm

Farshad


Area-1255 wrote:List your primary concerns, Farshad.
Tell me every SYMPTOM you are experiencing.

Very bad anxiety.
faitgue.
cant concentrate, cant think,  dont enjoy anything,
Agression
very bad OCD
shaking of hands
bad vision

I made a post on raypeat listing all high serotonin related symtomps which I based on me
raypeatforum.com/community/threads/side-effects-of-too-much-serotonin.18161/

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